Welcome to the ENT!
Embrace a little more gratitude, give a little more to the causes you are passionate about, with Nathan Merrill and Karl Frank. A lot of charitable planning centers around tax planning--if I give this, then I will save that in taxes. But rather than thinking of it as a quid pro quo, Nathan encourages us to come back to a higher level. "Detached or disinterested generosity," and the other legal definitions of charitable giving, is a good way to begin. And to whom do I want to make a gift? For many business owners, their team-mates are among the most important people in their lives. The laws make it hard to give to an employee any gift over $25. Buying a table at a charitable event is another way to make a gift, that is important. But the "how" we give is not as challenging as the why we give. Asheville, NC, is a part of the world that is struggling today, perhaps this is a great way to organize your thoughts. It is important to line up your impact with your tax deduction, and not plan around the tax benefits. You may want some recognition today even if the charity does not receive money until a later date. Included in our discussion are some of these strategies, including trusts, qualified distributions, etc. Learn about where to go to get an idea of charities to donate to. And finally, we discuss the importance of planning, because "when your values are clear, your decisions are easy."
Resources mentioned in today's podcast:
As always, it is good to have an expert on your side.
episode-117-charitable-why-forming-a-reason-sound-only
Karl Frank [00:00:00] Welcome to the Expert Network Team podcast.
Nathan Merrill: I had an interesting conversation with a former colleague of mine about, she was with our firm for a while, but before you knew us, she does our securities work. And where some of my security work. She lives out in Asheville now. And I was out in Asheville last Wednesday, Thursday, and they're still recovering from Helene and she's in Nashville.
Oh, Asheville. Asheville, North Carolina. Oh yeah. I was there in December. It's crazy. It's really, yeah. They're still doing tree mitigation and there's people who are still, she's she was working with someone who. Still hadn't had power like four months later. They just barely got it turned back up. Yes.
[00:01:00] And I totally believe it. One of her pitches to me was, do you know people who would be willing to give to Asheville based charities to help these people out? Because it's been forgotten now and there's still a tremendous amount of need. And so that's where a conversation like this comes into play is.
Is. Good charities need to be funded up before these things hit. Yeah. Rather than doing, and we, Billy Evans and I do a lot of raising for Sentinel Foundation, which is the folks who do the extraction of child trafficked children who are sex trafficked. Yeah. And. But they're always raising campaign to campaign, which our goal is to try to help bow them and get them, have an ongoing operation.
Yeah. So one of my thoughts is the how you give is not the why you give. This is the how. Does that make sense? And so [00:02:00] some, whenever we engage with people to begin broader planning discussions, and one of our standard questions is, are these clients charitably inclined? Yeah. But I had never really thought about what does that actually mean to be charitably inclined?
Does that mean I'm interested in using tax strategies that involve charitable giving to get my end result? Or am I truly. Charitably. What does that mean? Yeah. And maybe that could be something we discuss is is, it's kinda like gifting in a sense. We talk about gifting strategies or other humans, but what you're really doing is doing wealth transfer.
So I don't even use gifting some of that. Yeah, because you're not actually giving it away. You're using gift tax exemption to move it from this bucket to that bucket. But the individual's not actually ever receiving anything. So are you actually giving it, what is a gift? What is charity are two questions that people think they know the [00:03:00] answer to.
But when we use them in our professional in legal endeavors, legal definitions are different from they end up being charitable. Charitable inclination just means you're interested in giving to charities because of the attendant tax benefits, or does it, and that's what I'm saying. There's a legal, yeah.
There are definitely tax benefits to the, all of these strategies that we outlined in the diagram. Are we gifting because we want to avoid the imposition of estate tax? Or are we gifting out of love and affection? Yeah. What is the shoot? What is the technical, it's one of my favorite definitions, and it's the one I struggle to remember the most is the technical definition of a gift.
I don't know, but you're separating from the asset permanently to another human. It's not a charitable recipient for a gift. It's a, it's an actual bipedal Homo sapiens. Yeah. Yeah. Property for less than full or [00:04:00] adequate consideration and money or money's worth made out of detached and disinterested, generosity, affection, respect, admiration, charity, or similar purposes.
This is. So that's a gift just in case you're wondering. Yeah, that's a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo in order to describe it. But every word there is interesting to, which is why it's hard to give a gift to an employee. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause can you, because it's, can you give a gift to an employee right out of.
Detach and disinterested, generosity, affection, respect, admiration, charity or other similar impulses, right? Because they're your employee. It's hard to satisfy that level of, it makes it really hard because you're being paid for your work. It they limited to $25, right? That's where that comes from, right?
But no I think if we wanted to spend some time, I.
Let's talk about that. What does it [00:05:00] mean to be charitably inclined? What, yeah. Because again, this is how you pursue charity strategies and you can understand an overview of the how, but the why you give. I just, obviously, why not? So here's one of the examples that she was giving a juxtaposition on. 'cause she knows the philanthropy industry pretty well. She's they're a friend and colleague of yours. Yeah. She gives the example of you go and you buy a table at a gala. Yeah. And some people view this as charitable because they're providing because of money, funds and resources.
But. A big amount of money costs the table and the table costs a little bit. And so the difference goes to the charity, right? And then there's the silent auctions and everything. But, those are all but what about just giving for a good cause, yeah. Does define your, your defining your perspective or your approach to charitable giving helps inform how the, how.
[00:06:00] Yeah, because if your goal is to get a tax deduction and then use that, so I have clients who will use DAFs as an example to basically fund up an account that covers their tithe. They have a large transaction in a given year, and they want to tie the transaction, but they also want to create an income stream that can effectively provide for their tithing.
Into the future on their regular income stream. So it's a tax free investment fund that can be used to direct that money for future tithing. So they're, it's a complicated tool, but the reason they want to give is not based on a tax deduction. There's, and that's my point, is there's no uniformity to what constitutes.
Charitable intent or inclination. Yeah. When I say, are they charitably inclined? I don't even know what I mean. Do they give to charity? Do they wanna give to charity? What kind of charities do they want to give to? What kind of impact do they want to have? These are the questions [00:07:00] that clients aren't even thinking about because they just think of the tax deduction associated, or a lot of them think of the tax deduction associated with the charity when in reality.
Take Asheville as an example, or hurricane Helene victims, you might have a lower effective impact tax-wise by giving to some of those charities because the need is immediate. There's not the ability to do long-term gifting strategies and that sort of stuff. They need the money now, but the impact you can have by giving to those charities is magnified because of the immediate need.
Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. I can create a charitable giving strategy that has massive tax impact, massive tax impacts, but the impact to the charity is pushed way out or is incremental, is just not impactful at all. Yeah. A, because [00:08:00] you're not choosing a specific cause to support, like you're going into a daf, you get a charitable deduction for contributing to a daf.
But no charity is actually, a 5 0 1 C3 has received the money, but it has had zero impact in the community. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not plan around the tax benefits. That's just a question that needs to be explored when someone says, am I charitably inclined? Am I after a tax deduction or am I after impact?
How do I maximize that? If you need the tax deduction, is it wrong to set up a charitable trust? Is it wrong to set up a charit, a complicated tax strategy, like one of the dozen that, that I outlined in this chart? No, but that's gonna dictate what your impact is gonna be. That's my point.
If you do a charitable remainder trust you're being charitable, you are ultimately giving a lot of money to charity. Absolutely. But that impact will be when you die. And is that the impact, is that the kind of charitable impact you're really looking to have [00:09:00] or are we letting the tax tail wag the dog saying, I've checked my charitable inclinations bucket box by doing this, and I'm the one reaping.
More I say from axes now. Yeah. Or I grow the money tax free and I'm benefiting. Yeah. That makes it a bigger benefit later for the charity. But it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to line that up with something, a charity that needs the money now and might not need it if you pass away at an unknown date.
It could be a long time from now. And that's where the intersection of. Impact versus effectiveness comes into play because you give to a charity now, unless you're giving appreciated stock, which is something I know we've talked about. We can mention it again. Yeah. That's where comes from you're giving appreciated stock you're getting a tax benefit now in terms of a larger deduction.
But it's an absolute gift and it has immediate impact. Yep. And that sort of thing. Whereas your deferred gifts can also be done to create tax efficiencies, but they're deferred, meaning the charity doesn't get it [00:10:00] until, but they're gonna get a lot because of the way the strategy works. So how do you define your impact?
What kind of impact are you looking to have? The immediate need or kind of the increased dollar amount, but deferred. When you choose a deferred. Strategy. You're giving tax benefits now and in the future, and the charity will get more money in the future. Do you have to know what charity you're gonna name?
No. That's where we often use DAFs. So you can direct that to a DAF and have the Family advice fund. Yeah. And then direct the custodian of the daf, the trustee of the daf, which charities you would like at some future date. And ultimately you can create a whole pointer, like a board of advisors of family members, G two family members who will help direct it are the successor or pointers under the daf.
And they'll be the ones who can decide where the charity goes, right? So it's like a [00:11:00] streamlined family foundation where you don't have to worry about the administration, you're just making deferred distributions. And so in that case then you could maybe build up, you could get other benefits.
You could build up family relationships by having a, by teaching the next generations how to control the charity. Correct. But in the case of a charitable remainder trust, you're not around When the charity, when the fund is actually funded, get the back, you'd have to do that training and teaching beforehand, which usually is best done with active giving, like going through.
Live. Exactly. You don't necessarily need to do a charitable remainder trust. That's one that all the benefits to the charity happen after you die. You could do DAF today and then decide next week while you're still alive, what the charity is. You could decide 10 years while you're still alive and decide what the charity is.
Yeah. What happens to the DAF after you pass away? It goes to the successor pointer and then they get to choose. Are there other types of deferred. Charity [00:12:00] planning that we can think about if we need that tax deduction in the immediate future. But we don't know what charity we want to give to or how much we want to give, what are there other types of strategies we should be thinking about?
At the high end, there's the family foundation, really expensive. Complicated. You're setting up a business is the best way to look at a family foundation. And that could be auditable by the IRS, correct. You have governance issues and you know this, so this is usually for.
Significant wealth. Yeah. I used to say 5 million going into family foundation is about the entry point threshold. That's the end point. Yeah. I would actually say it's probably more than that now. 10 to 15, even more than five. Yeah. Yeah. So most people really shouldn't be thinking about that, not about family foundations.
No. You can set up your own. Charities and nonprofits. But those are usually the people who want to engage as though was their primary occupation to That's their job. They're creating a new job for themselves. Correct. So using the [00:13:00] Helene example, if you're gonna go and administer relief to the folks in North Carolina.
Carolina, and you set up a nonprofit so you can accept contributions in that people can deduct Yeah. That's your job. You may want to, yeah. That's a big job. And if you're not in love with it, you shouldn't be doing it. You could provide pro bono legal advice. I could provide pro bono financial planning advice for residents of Asheville who are hit in ways.
Yeah. Or, and you can still, to this day, you could go and, contribute your labor and people. Yeah. That's what I'm saying, labor skills, not giving people outreach. I saw this Amish, the story of Amish people. Did you see this story? I didn't. No. Fascinating. These people are just amazing. A group of Amish people, I think 50 or so, came down over a weekend and over the weekend rebuilt someone's house.
Wow. Good for them. And built it. Okay, so this tells us a lot about our current. Construction industry. Like they rebuilt the house in a [00:14:00] weekend. Yeah. That's amazing. Their skills and then maybe it's not, a high-end home, but it was, it put a roof over someone's head in three days.
It's a big deal. Fascinating story. And they paid all themselves probably. How generous of that. Yeah. And that's, we go back to, that's the big impact. We go back to impact. Did they give, they, I don't know what the cost of everything was. But massive impact and immediate impact. So this is again, going back to the colleague I have in Asheville.
She's we're looking, I'm working with nonprofits right now in Asheville who need money? Yeah. Who are ready. How do we get ultra high net worth people to recognize that need and be willing to help to, yeah. To make an impact now. To make an impact now. What kind of recognition do they need?
And these are all good questions He presented to me. I'm like, I don't really know. 'cause I'm always so focused on the Yeah, the legal, the tax planning side of it. Of it. Yeah. I'm not really, I haven't focused as much and I do [00:15:00] focus in the gifting. Going back to the gifting comparison, when I talk to people about gifting I'm open with them.
You're not making a gift here. You're making a wealth transfer that is for tax purposes, considered a gift. But this has nothing to do with detached and disinterested generosity, out of love and affection and all that other stuff. This is tax motivated planning. And that's what charitable planning has often become in my practice.
And I'm a, a. Bit ashamed to say that it's lost kind of its meaning because it's so focused on the tax. So your side of it is definitely the tax side. It the people miss the opportunity to be impactful, hopefully the charitable donors, hopefully the folks who you're working with, your actual clients, spend time thinking about the charities and really have a passion or a heart for it.
It actually makes me, that alone makes me think of, an example of someone who I will be working with soon who placed a charity in a [00:16:00] beneficiary capacity. I don't think this is with you. I think it's with someone else, and they've never acknowledged the charity has never acknowledged it, but it's a testamentary bequest, right?
So I had to look at this on both sides of this coin. Maybe the charity. Hasn't done anything to acknowledge the request, but she's not dead yet. Yeah, so they haven't gotten any benefits yet. But to Charity could have probably done better to acknowledge charity, probably should, but on her hand, she hasn't actually done anything to benefit anybody yet.
And so understanding what her expectations were and making that. Testamentary designation would be an important conversation for a planner to have with a client. Yeah, the client may want recognition today, but the benefits won't happen until they pass away. And so as a planner, as an advisor, we need to understand that's the expectation, and perhaps engage with the charity to say, [00:17:00] Hey, we have a client who's making this insertion.
They would expect this type of recognition or acknowledgement or get invited to your annual gala, whatever it is. I don't know. Yeah, whatever it is, they can ho out with the other friends and make a big deal and we've had clients do a similar thing and big charities are good at that.
Big charities I think still recognize the life bequests and they've got a system for it, but smaller charities just don't. We will probably be the ones who failed, would be my guess. Maybe some big ones are making a mistake. And they're the ones that, getting back to endowing a charity, if your goal is to really set up a charity with, effectively an endowment fund, to your point, you gotta make sure they're gonna survive.
You, you want 'em to be, yeah. You want the charity to be around. So that's hard because you can sometimes, choose a charity and then find out that's not who I want anymore. And you don't wanna make something permanent. Or you have to engage in such a way that you can [00:18:00] provide them ongoing financial support.
And this is where I get into the Sentinel Foundation, is they're doing great work, impactful work, which I would love to be part of. And we're working on kind of an endowment program for them. But if they don't get their stuff now. They've hurt, now they've ought to gone to go get other jobs and do other things to pay the bills.
The benefits are needed now. The money will be spent now, so there's two sides to that coin. So if you, so I, using myself as an example, if I really, truly want to endow them, I have to engage in other behaviors that help make sure that we get to that point of being able to endow them.
Yeah. I have to help them raise money. I have to. Figure out a way to, because these are operators. They're not nonprofit. They're right in that particular chair. They're military people. They need advisors like me and the other guy that I'm working with to help guide them through that process.
'cause and so for example, [00:19:00] retired business people are great, get on a board of a charity that you believe in and help them. Yeah. It's one of the things that we do around here that we really love actually. And there's some great organizations here in Denver that'll help you find charities.
And the charities will pitch, some of the foundations here in town to get other business members to come and help them with their business decisions. A lot of charities are run by. We call 'em, guys in the green, they're, they got a big heart. But they're missing out on some of the, they're not MBAs, they're not seasoned.
Strategists and business people. Exactly. Yeah. A lot of 'em are not. Yeah. And they really need that help. They need the business skills. They need the ability to buy a. A piece of real estate or take out a loan, if that's appropriate, or just understand how the books are I was just gonna say, how do to make sure that your outflows match inflows.
Yeah. That sort of thing. That's tough skill. That's a really tough skill for a lot of small charities, all charities, but certainly for the ones that don't have, business people that they can lean on all the time. So choosing a [00:20:00] charity, you can get immediate benefit, obviously by making a gift, an outright gift to a charity, but.
You don't get all the tax benefits as you would maybe over the long duration if you choose some of these others because you might be limited perhaps. Yeah. So starting with the basics, cash, donations, dollar for dollar, right up to a tax deduction. Yeah. And then I think it's still in place a hundred percent of a GI.
So if you made a million dollars, you can give a million dollars in cash and deduct, and they dropped to 50% here soon. Assuming it doesn't get extended. Yeah, in kind donations, you're either at 30 or 50% depending on the charity. Typically stock, appreciated stock. You're still good at 50% of a GI for direct contributions.
That's still probably the best bang for your buck, is giving appreciated stock. Because publicly traded stock, 'cause you're getting the value as the deduction and you're eliminating the gain that you had from when you bought it small. So you've done a double whammy, you got the deduction and you don't have to [00:21:00] recognize that's a great way to get a double tax.
And I think we've talked in the past also about some of these what are they qualified? There's a qualified charitable distribution from your IRA and we love those. 'cause there you're not recognizing the income and you're taking the deduction. Correct. And you have to be 70 and a half to be able to do that.
So that eliminates a lot of people. But if you're over that age, it's a great way to give a gift. And you can give up to a hundred thousand a year. While you're living. And that's where, we go back to make an impact. Impact, right? Yeah. Because the charitable. Bequest to even a charitable remainder trust or a charity, depending on how you want to do it, is also a great way to deal with an asset that otherwise is includeable in your estate is income in respect of a decedent, meaning whoever gets it, there's no step up in basis.
It's gonna be all ordinary income to 'em. But, and this gets into some of your, companion strategy to one you talk about here. The wealth transfer trust, where if you do a charitable remainder trust, you establish a trust that buys life insurance to basically replace the wealth that you've conveyed to [00:22:00] charity.
Yeah. If you have life insurance assets and you have retirement assets, rather than use life insurance or any of those sorts of assets that get a step up basis to benefit your children, instead, redirect the. The deferred assets, the retirement accounts to charity and leave the ones that get a step up in basis or tax rate.
And then they all, everybody wins. Yeah, right? Everybody wins. It's not the government and the DA bummer. And the downside is that there's gonna be a little bit of life insurance premium you're gonna have to pay, but the kids or whoever, it's cheaper than the tax keep. It'll be cheaper than the tax.
Keep in mind that, that's why I point out, you don't get a step up in basis on those IRA assets and you, it's taxed at ordinary income levels. So if you're leaving it to kids who are well to do. They could be in a high income tax bracket, it's 37%, take that 37% and say that's my insurance premium.
Allotment. That goes a long ways. Yeah. They could inherit a lot of money. Yeah. It's a big win. It's a big win. Especially today, you inherit an [00:23:00] IRA and you gotta spend it within 10 years. So it's a big deal to be able to, you're not gonna be able to spread it out and keep yourself in a lower bracket.
You might hit that higher bracket sooner. I love where we started and where we're going with the why, because you shouldn't be doing this if you don't have that. If you don't have a charitable intent. This is not if you're not, if you don't have a charitable intent, you're just doing tax planning.
Yeah. And then, and it loses some of its shape. It does. And then where is the money going to someplace that's meaningful for you. You'll lose a lot of the benefit. How do you recommend people find a charity? If they go to a church or synagogue or they have a, a faith based orient orientation, that can be easier.
And maybe that's the beginning and the end for a lot of people, but if they don't or they're looking for something else where do you suggest people go? How should they get involved? What have you seen your clients do? There's a couple of organizations that have resources for you to basically like I, I'll relate it to picking stocks, like how do [00:24:00] you pick stocks, right?
Yeah. You look at how they're performing. You look at their, yeah, earnings per share, price to earnings ratio, that sort of stuff. There is, there are some organizations that, that gather in that information about charities. So you can say, you can search by. Topic or type of charity.
Are they building orphanages in South America or whatever it is that you're passionate about, whatever it's, and then it will pull up all the charities that have that as a stated purpose. Yeah. And then you can look deeper into their finances because that information is available.
It says, what are their expenditures? Per dollar raised on general administrative and overhead. How efficient are they? And then you can dig into, once you find a particular charity. So due diligence can be done the same way. And you, a lot of us, you can do on the internet like you're saying now.
So you don't have to necessarily, and there are people I think out there that you could hire to help you choose charities. Yeah. All charities. So one of them charities, one of them that I and so [00:25:00] Foundation Source is a, great resource for foundations because they run the back office of family foundations, that sort of thing.
But they also have a wealth of information on charities generally, because a lot of foundations are not operating foundations. They're gifting foundations. They're like a a daf. Yeah. They give money. Yeah. I know I, I've never really used this 'cause the charities that I'm involved with, I usually know well things like Boy Scouts of America back in the day.
Yeah, sure. Great. Yeah. If you're already involved with the charity then you know the charity. Yeah. But going back to the Asheville example, if you're looking for charities that are involved there, I would look to local community foundations, find a local nonprofit. Yeah. In all likelihood, they're getting their money from other feeder organizations.
They're oftentimes the real impactful boots on the ground, the one, the biggest impact. I like that idea. I love, and you can either fund those local. Groups or you can fund their feeder organizations [00:26:00] because you want someone to provide oversight over the dispensing of the funds.
So if it's a feeder organization, they're usually requiring their grants, are tied to performance or something. So that's the kind of thing I think you can look into. But community foundations are. Where you're gonna get granularly local. If you were to, start from the beginning and say, this is the way I would approach it.
Let's say you've got a client who you know and you've got a long time, right? 10 years or however long, whatever timeframe you think is right, and, taxes are important as well as, making an impact in the world. What are the some of the things that you would want people to start thinking about now if they had time to get this all together?
I have a feeling that like me you're facing clients near the end and there's just not as much time and it's a little more pressure. But if you had the way what would you do? What would you counsel? I think it would [00:27:00] be similar to how we counsel the family side of it. To the family planning side is create a mission statement.
Rory Disney, you're familiar with the quote, I'm pretty sure. That says, when your values are clear, your decisions are easy. If you define through a mission statement or a purpose statement or impact statement using a Dan Sullivan idea, if you know what you're trying to accomplish, then it makes very clear the means by which you can accomplish that if your mission or vision of charitable giving.
Is not to have immediate impact, then you know what type of organizations that you wanna give to and tools you can use, right? If your goal is to have immediate impact and very specific type of impact, then using a broad sweeping tool like a charitable trust or even a DAF may not be the best approach where you might just want to find local active charities that you can not only [00:28:00] give money, but time to.
And have a deeper immediate impact. So I think a lot of it starts with, rather than going to an advisor and saying, what should I do for charitable giving? It's or maybe the first conversation should be with that advisor, the one we're having now, which is what is the spectrum of. Recipients help me understand the type of impact giving opportunities and what their relative impact and effectiveness and benefits are to me.
But I think it's probably easier for most people to go and say, this is, this makes me feel charitable. Yeah. What can I do? To effectively do that, to make a bigger impact, to keep doing the things that, it's again, going back to the gifting analogy if you say, I want to give my kids money, I want to give them wealth, I want to set them up nicely, but I don't want it to be, I.
[00:29:00] Negatively impacting their personal motivation, their marriage, their, list of things that could be impacted by significant wealth transfers. That helps inform how we approach those, the planning. Planning from an execution standpoint, because it's very easy to write a check, but that's often not what they're looking to do.
Same thing with charity. You can very easily write a check to a charity, but is it having the. Impact that you want, that you really want. Charities, some of the.
Sorry I, this might actually be shifting gears, so I, if you wanna finish your thought then no, I think you've got I think that's a great place to begin, and it's also a lot of work to think about your mission and we could probably interview some of the friends that we both have.
To help us just focus on that, how do you create a personal mission or a family mission or something that is around charitable giving? Yeah. Yeah. And you just to help build that up, on a practical standpoint, it would be easier [00:30:00] if you had that, like the Disney quote that you had.
In our company our, the recipients of our corporate donations as well as the Frank family personal donations are, in three general buckets. And so those are the three that we limited it with but we didn't start before that. Like that would be the product of having a value system.
It might be nice, and I think we should probably do that at a future podcast to bring one of these people in there and say, okay, this is how you could develop. That before you start limiting it, because maybe the limit is too big. Maybe we wanna broaden it or maybe we can narrow it even further.
Yeah. Yeah. I like that idea. But it's just the inverse of that. It's hard to come up with good strategy when you don't know what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah. I see that so often in, in planning, not just in charitables where. It's the sorry, just real quick.
Yeah, go for it. The country club approach to planning, and I'm sure you have this happy go time, which is my buddy at the club told me about this and I want to do that. And you're like [00:31:00] but why? Yeah. And sure. I heard a story from a successful guy I know. Yeah. Often I feel and this is funny because it's one way to climb a mountain, right?
And, or it's one way to get out in the woods, or it's one way to live your life. I don't know where I'm going, but I know how to get there. The attorneys know how to get you there, but they don't know where you're going. You gotta bring that in, right? Yeah. And you need good advisors, whether it's attorneys or financial advisors.
Yep. Who are willing to hit the pause button and say. What are you trying to accomplish here? Why are you doing this? Is it to match the guy at the country club because we can do that. Yeah. But just helping them, is that meaningful? Probably not. Maybe they're not looking for meaning.
Maybe they just want to be able to do the same thing the other guy at the country club does. And I'm okay with that, but just as long as it's clear. Yeah. That's a little that none of us can do. This is a great conversation. Thanks, man. Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed the discussion and the [00:32:00] information we shared.
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